the CR is just about right.. if you want lazor accuracy go whine about Rail Rifles

You're right about the CR, but the RR in CQC is pretty ridiculous too.

Poor CR has been nerfed the most and people still want more nerfs- because they aren't Minny.

The weapon is the way it is because it makes up for what the matar lack but on other suits it's just icing. A fitting penalty to others could work but also a 100 - 200 rpm reduction on non-minmatar suits would be ideal

All I am saying is if the weapon is nerfed more then the Minmatar suits suffer the most. Now if the suits are normalized enough for them to use diverse weapon combinations as others then go for it.

Currently other suits can get more out of a CR than Minmatar

Also I think some of you are overstating the strengths of the CR over the others

nothign but whineing.. remember how OP AR used to be?

"OP" is a relative designation.

-Chuckles- was my initial reaction when community members I'd come to respect rallied in defense of the AR-514 status quo. I'd assumed they were trolling.

To answer your question, yes, I've skilled the CR to Proficiency IV. Same with the AR and most recently the ScR. Skilled the RR to Proficiency V. I've found each of the Fine Rifles to be stupidly good in close quarters. A weapon optimized for killing at range should be sh*t in CQC ... because balance and stuff.

Ultra-precise hipfire ... from a ranged weapon ... all the while frantically wiggling?
That right there is something to -chuckle- about.

Then again, this is just one guy's opinion.

1. I'm not looking to "give" you my respect, Aeon. You had it before, and it is certainly within your capacity to earn it again. I know your heart is in the right place. Less nonsense like ^ this ^ and more of the old, analytical Aeon. Everyone wins.

2. My earlier point (the one you -chuckled- at and appear to have ignored) is that "OP" is a relative designation. When 80% of every killfeed of every match reads "AR", you know have a balance problem. What came before or after that balance problem is wholly irrelevant. The AR is no longer OP; that doesn't mean it never was, and it certainly doesn't mean you were right to defend it back when it epitomized imbalance.

3. As is the situation with Scouts. Scouts went from under 5% of units-in-action to upwards of 30% immediately following 1.8. We recognize Scout Spam to be indicative of a balance problem. The same goes for Heavies and Combat Rifles. No tinfoil here. Only usage rates.

4. I don't know what you're talking about here. Fine Rifles (AR, CR, ScR, RR) are all too good from the hip. That pretty much sums up my view on the subject. Specific details were offered here. The better it is at killing at range, the less effective it should be up-close.

1. If you want people to assume Point A as a foundation for Point B, then reference Point A as an assumption in advance. It is unreasonable to demand that we take into account every point or claim you've made to date. If you agree that Fine Rifle hipfire should be less reliable, and that of the Fine Rifles the AR's hipfire should be most reliable, then we're on the same page.

2. Your impression is wrong. I agree that the vanilla AR is the worst of the Fine Rifles, and I'd like to see it outperform other rifles in CQC at the tradeoff of underperforming them at range. I think this is best accomplished by making the others (namely CR, RR, ScR) less effective in CQC than they are at present. Balance demands that a weapon have its strengths and drawbacks. A "jack of all trades" weapon or weapon category has no place in a shooter with Dust's weapon variety.

3. Skipped

4. Here's where you and I disagree most. (1) Weapons optimized for CQC should seldom win fights at range and (2) weapons optimized for range combat should seldom win fights in CQC. Present mechanics and design decisions to date have created an environment where (1) is routinely observed while (2) is routinely ignored, in effect granting the users of Fine Rifles the best of both worlds. You may think that you like ultra-precise hipfire, but it is a contributing factor to your original post's complaints. If the RR, CR and ScR were less effective from the hip in close quarters, then CQC weapons like the AR would be in a far better place.

5. Things like tactics, teamwork, situational awareness, aim, reflexes --- these are skills. Things like ultra-precise hipfire, forgiving HP pools, every-range Fine Rifles, overly effective wiggling, insta-spin for all shapes and sizes --- these are more free passes than skills. When we talk about "out-skilling" an opponent, we should focus more on skills and less on free passes.

6. Apologies if you think I intended to derail your thread. I did pursue a tangent when I perceived you to be claiming that the former master-of-all-trades AR was in fact "fine" and that you were somehow justified in defending it. Other than that, I believe I've remained on point. I hope I've made my points more clear for you.

7. Your lack of regard for any opinion contrary to your own did not help your vote count.

8. Agreed.

Thank you. I think.

In my mind, CPM is all about speaking to the Devs on behalf of the playerbase. If balance and bugs are the only things subject to change, what other topics might a productive member of CPM discuss with Rattati and Logibro? Even if it is beyond the scope of the institution's original mission, I'd like to think that current CPM members will step up to the plate and participate in balance discussions with the community they represent.

What else is there to talk about?